There have been some Parelli questions of late and I posted one myself. It got me thinking when I answered one….
Once a horse is trained in Parelli do the following owners/handlers need to be also skilled in the Parelli methods?
You can either just give your opinion OR you can also read part of my response to a person asking about Parelli to train their 2yo below.
***** EDIT —– This is not a Parelli bash for me. I do caution you to be CAREFUL because if it is not done correctly you may find yourself with "issues".
So unless you plan on spending the money on buying his system or attending his clinics and learning the "secrets", I don’t know if ANYONE would actually be an effective trainer in his methods.
In all the research I have done in the last week (because of the above horse) I have discovered by watching countless videos that there are very specific techniques used. If you don’t teach them correctly or the horse is then sold to a non-Parelli person, they won’t be able to effectively work with the horse. Until the handler also learns how to do the techniques they are pretty much useless.
Many people I know said they would not buy a Parelli/Monty etc. horse. And I thought it could not be that bad, I’ve been with horses my whole life! But what NH people are telling me is lightness, I consider with this horse to be nervy. He won’t stand still and is always jumping away, because they are taught to move away quickly. He hates being groomed, apparently grooming is a "dominance thing", and I’m lower in the pecking order. So then the previous owner tells me that he is jumping away because I’m to forceful and I have to approach him submissively!
I mean seriously, I just asked for a nice quiet horse. And he probably is when he is with his owner and she is swinging her stick thing around with special commands of what to do. In MY personal experience this horse I have, is not a horse you could just hand to anyone and you certainly could not hand him to a beginner, unless they planned to do the courses and "learn" the specific techniques.
The only other option I’m left to conclude; is that this horse has been messed with by idiots, who did not know how to train the methods correctly, which is why I caution you to be careful.
Either do it correctly or don’t do it at all. AND make sure you ensure that any prospective buyers of the horse, are advised of HOW to use the techniques with your horse.
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?
Can you teach a four year old how to read by sticking a book in front of their face or do you have to teach them the alphabet first?
Anyone can mimic another person’s saying or actions but they will not get the same affect or results as the person that knows what they are doing. I can give the same dirty looks that my mom gave me as a child but they lack the effectiveness because it’s not coming from her.
I’m sure if Parelli actually watched what his "students" were doing he’d end up beating some of them with the business end of a Carrot Stick. That being said, if he was actually present and someone training their horse, he could also instruct and train the "trainer" in order to find the correctness in the methods.
The problem with buying a DVD and watching that for your afternoon movie and then deciding to try it on your horse, many things can be lost in translation. Despite that a lot of these "natural horsemanship" videos are done in layman’s terms, there are many fine details that are overlooked… and as you say; there are "secrets" that aren’t being revealed.
When I first started training Monster, I was out in the front lines. Some stuff made sense to me but other days, when I was far away and observing I started noticing some of the smaller, yet vital parts of training. It’s easier to see body language and position when you’re looking at it from a third party stand point. Like learning to lunge a horse, I would stand up in front of the shoulder trying to figure out why my horse would either stop or change direction. When I observed from a distance, I noticed the "lines" between the horse, rider and whip and it suddenly clicked.
So yes, in my opinion, the rider needs as much – if not more – training than the horse, but preferably from the source that the horse is learning from.
March 1st, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Wow. What you said is 100% true. Parelli has A LOT of secrets and behind the sense training. Therye all about fun and games, not training the horse and rider. I dont like Parelli so I dont use it but I find it to be a waste of time. Hope this helped!
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March 1st, 2010 at 9:16 pm
I think it’s just like any other training "technique". [Although I'm not a NH fan, at all.]
Obviously, no matter what technique you choose to use in training a horse, if you don’t know how to do it/what you’re doing, the end product probably isn’t going to be spectacular.
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March 1st, 2010 at 10:03 pm
I have mixed feelings about parelli. I have had fun learning it, but frankly, I don’t think its worth doing. It just seems pointless. I think that ANYTHING done wrong with horses is not good. But the horse I ride has been trained in parelli. He does NOT stand still for grooming, saddling, or mounting. He swings his hindquarters around everytime I switch sides while grooming. Plus he pulls me all over, constantly rubs his head on me, and kicks, bucks, and pins his ears at me while doing ground work! Come to think of it, all the parelli trained horses at my barn are crazy. The lesson horse my sister rides (an extreme beginner) has bucked her off twice in the past month!
So yeah, I will never buy a parelli horse and once I get my horse, I won’t be doing any parelli with it. Even if its kind of fun to learn, it doesn’t do anything good for the horse or rider. Unless you’re happy being lower on the pecking order than your own horse.
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March 1st, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Can you teach a four year old how to read by sticking a book in front of their face or do you have to teach them the alphabet first?
Anyone can mimic another person’s saying or actions but they will not get the same affect or results as the person that knows what they are doing. I can give the same dirty looks that my mom gave me as a child but they lack the effectiveness because it’s not coming from her.
I’m sure if Parelli actually watched what his "students" were doing he’d end up beating some of them with the business end of a Carrot Stick. That being said, if he was actually present and someone training their horse, he could also instruct and train the "trainer" in order to find the correctness in the methods.
The problem with buying a DVD and watching that for your afternoon movie and then deciding to try it on your horse, many things can be lost in translation. Despite that a lot of these "natural horsemanship" videos are done in layman’s terms, there are many fine details that are overlooked… and as you say; there are "secrets" that aren’t being revealed.
When I first started training Monster, I was out in the front lines. Some stuff made sense to me but other days, when I was far away and observing I started noticing some of the smaller, yet vital parts of training. It’s easier to see body language and position when you’re looking at it from a third party stand point. Like learning to lunge a horse, I would stand up in front of the shoulder trying to figure out why my horse would either stop or change direction. When I observed from a distance, I noticed the "lines" between the horse, rider and whip and it suddenly clicked.
So yes, in my opinion, the rider needs as much – if not more – training than the horse, but preferably from the source that the horse is learning from.
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March 1st, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Yes, if the person is not trained as well, having a well trained horse that does any form of natural horsemanship will do no good. I was going to train a neighbors horse, but they didn’t know how to ride at all, so training their horse would not have done alot of good because they would reverse all the damage I would have had to work on to fix it. I particularly like Clinton Anderson & Cris Cox, although most "Natural horsemanship" is all very similar. I have watched the first 2 levels of Parelli video’s. Currently I am reading books, & watching movies by Bob Loomis for training my allmost 3 y/o paint filly for reining.
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March 1st, 2010 at 11:31 pm
My oppion on Pareli’s methods are that he is just stealing somebody else’s discovery and changing them so that they work for an incompentent trainer such as himself. I love Monty Roberts, he’s so wonderful and his training methods are very gentle and they suit me very well. I’ve tried Monty and Parreli. Parreli seems to be impatient and fake to me, he changes word so that it sounds gentler but it is really less efective, some times even the efect is the oposite of what you wanted. Parreli thinks about what the rider wants only and Monty thinks of the horse and the rider and working with the horse and it’s instinct.
Go with Monty, it is much simpler and better over all. Yes, I do use some of the Parreli equiment (Like the carrot stick when I work with young horses) but I don’t use his methods. Your horse is jumping away because grooming is a dominace thing. Horses that trust each other groom each other and when you are grooming you horse all over he just doesn’t have that kind of trust with you. If you were to aproach submisively he would be the same or worse. horses want a bond with a strong member of the herd that will keep him safe and if you come over there all submisive than one, he thinks he can push you around if he wants or two, you still have the trust issue. I had a Parrwli trained horse that I ended up returning because she was unrideable and several other issues, all because of Parreli. The horse needed an owner that was firm but rode with light aids and her previous owner & trainer was just the oposite, which turned her into an inrideable. I didn’t have time to have to retrain her so I returned her. Go with Monty and you’ll be more satisfied. Also, here is a video on how to do join up. I always do this after grooming but you should do it before because of your particular horse. Good luck!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dx91mH2voo
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March 1st, 2010 at 11:41 pm
The lady whos barn i work at studies parelli like its the bible. I personally don’t like it very much. I prefer non potentially violent methods of training. I hate whacking the buckle on the lead rope against the horses faces to get them to back. I guess that’s just my oppinion. Also, Pat believes that his way of doing things works with EVERY horse, but i think it only works with dominant horses. If you had a meek, shy, unsure horse, you could just scar his worse.
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March 1st, 2010 at 11:48 pm
Oh I like this question!! So much more to it than those, "IS MY HORSE PURDY?" questions.
I personally like Parelli. I have practiced Parelli with my horse since he was three months old, and he’s an upcoming four year old now. But you see, I take Pat and Linda’s methods, and put a twist on it. I don’t agree 100% with all their techniques. For instance, backing up with the wiggle of a finger. I’m sorry, but when your horse explodes, and it’s just a matter of time before they do, wiggle your finger isn’t going to do squat. Sorry. But getting your horse to back up by wiggling your lead rope, that’s a fantastic idea!!
Now, to answer your question, yes, if you plan on purchasing a parelli horse, you yourself need to be familiar with the parelli methods, otherwise you will have a very well trained horse, but you won’t know how to get it to respect you, and you won’t understand how to get the horse’s mind working.
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March 2nd, 2010 at 12:33 am
I spent four months training one of my horses with an NH trainer with international background and experience. She was certitfied by Parelli, as well as a couple other noted NH trainers. She had years of training experience and credentials preceding her NH focus, and her methods reflected all of her background. I’ve worked with some of the best trainers in dressage as well as western and hunter/jumper disciplines over decades. So I am no novice to assessing trainers or training.
A horse correctly trained using NH methods that is put into the hands of anyone who relies on harsh and forceful methods to handle horses is likely to react with confusion or fear. Just as a highly trained horse will flip out when ridden by an uneducated rider with heavy hands and sloppy aids. I’ve seen idiots get on an impeccably trained, incredibly sensitive horse and call the seller a scam artist because their own pathetically untrained "skills" were so impatient and abusive to the refined and educated mouth and body of the horse they attempted to ride was violated by their ignorance, and the horse flipped out because of it.
I do think, unfortunately, that there are many horses professed to be Parelli trained, when in fact they are backyard owner trained based on DVDs and nothing more.
But as one who highly regards NH training methodology, I do think that you need to study and understand the language your horse has been taught to speak. I also think that if we are going to assume there should be a universal language of training that all horses should conform to, then we all need to agree on what it entails, since we humans are the ones with the IQs. Until that happens, it is up to each of us to adapt to the language of the horses we acquire.
You do need to study and learn about the language your new horse has learned to speak, because you can and he can’t.
Is it really that surprising that he doesn’t speak your language? It isn’t surprising to me. And it isn’t about right or wrong. It is about different, and adapting to different.
But I know for sure that if you continue to speak one language, and he speaks another one, someone is going to have to learn the other one’s language, or what you’ll have is a failure to communicate. NH training is more about training the humans than the horses.
PS…..I think barefoot says it very well………………………….
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57 years with horses and training
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:23 am
I like REAL natural horsemanship- just you, the horse, and a round pen or something so your horse doesn’t run away. Getting a horse to trust you AND accept that you are the dominant one is easy- just do what horsemen/women have been doing for centuries. I had an amazing bond with my old lease horse just by loving him and being there to protect him and soothe him. I miss him terribly, and I know he misses me. I don’t like Parelli. I think it’s a game with gimmicks and crap. Give me natural horsemanship without gimmicks.
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March 2nd, 2010 at 1:58 am
If you want to use a training system, then yes, you should get trained in how to use it.
A horse that is well trained with any system, should be able to work with any human who has basic horse sense.There is enough commonality among all forms of good training, that most trained horses should be able to work decently with most educated riders.
I started a previously unhandled 2 yr old colt with my own homemade training methods. He responded like rest of the horses that I’ve started – calm and quiet, good manners, cooperative attitude, enjoys being with people. I asked a friend who had done great things with her own horse using the Parelli system, to check out his responses to "the games". Raven was a fostering and training project for a horse rescue, so I wanted him to be ready for his new forever home, whatever training or handling approach they might use. I am most certainly NOT a Parelli fan, and I never studied the games. Nancy went through all the games, and Raven acted as if he’d been doing them all his life. They are just a paint-by-numbers way of teaching the basics. Raven knew the basics, so he knew how to "play the games".
If you do it right, it’s right, regardless of the name you call it. If you screw it up, you’ve got a screwed up horse, by any name.
And, ParkItOut, from your photo and your name, it’s pretty obvious that it’s not just "natural horsemanship" that you’re not a fan of – you don’t like *anything* natural when it comes to your horse. I worked at a Park Horse stable – there’s nothing remotely natural about that discipline.
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Life experience and observation
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:30 am
Sorry, there are no secrets here. Natural horsemanship is very very old. Native Americans used natural horsemanship before there were any other people in what we know as the U.S. The younger natural horsemanship trainers that are now presenting it are just in a revival. They are trying to train the humans and insure the fair and humane treatment of horses and make the relationship between horses and humans more safe.
Horses already know most of the NH techniques. It is again, about safety, and learning the language of the horse (their body language) to improve respect, trust, and communication to eventually advance riding. Humans just have to learn what the horses know to reach an understanding and a more level "playing field" so to speak. It is primarily to have a positive benefit for the quality of life of the horse.
If a horse and human have an advanced level of communication and understanding, for example through utilizing the techniques of Pat Parelli, if there is a "new owner" in the horse’s future, and they are not accomplished in NH techniques, there will be a failure. Without consistent utilization of the techniques, the relationship will not exist and the new owner and the horse will be where most people are, struggling to get by. While humans are used to this and think it is the norm, it is miserable for the horse, but they are such wonderful and tolerant creatures, they do their best to put up with us in our ignorance. It would be really sad for the horse because he is used to having that understanding and trust and when it is lost, it will be significant for the horse. I think the horse will not understand what happened and why his existence, which was once clear and comfortable, is now frought with confusion because now he is faced with a human that is clueless and has no knowledge and ability in the language of the horse. Most humans don’t know or care that they are clueless. Their goals with their horses are usually very superficial and neglectful.
My horses are so amazing and our ability to communicate is so advanced, I cannot even fathom my horses going away from me into the "other horse world" out there. They would perceive this as abusive, and I know they would feel insulted and would not be happy (in as much as these kinds of terms can apply to a horse and their thought and behavior patterns). Horses do not have thought processes even similar to a human or any other creature. They do not learn or react like others. I have seen barn owners who think they can train a horse like they train their dog – so wrong – you are talking predator and prey here – two different worlds completely – not even. While you may use your tone of voice and "good dog" and get your desired response, you can say "good boy" to your horse and he really doesn’t even notice and could care less. Again, their abilities and emotions and responses are specific especially to the equines only.
Again, I don’t believe there are any secrets here. There are a lot of techniques to learn. It is about the human mostly. It is about feel, timing, balance and language. It is about staying cool, calm and relaxed when you have 1300 pounds on the end of 12 foot lead standing on his hind legs and snorting fire (figure of speech). It is about allowing the horse to do what he needs to do, be safe and live through it, so he can learn to be the best horse he can be for you. It is about learning how to handle and bring around a green horse (could be 3 or 23 – it’s the same) start him under saddle without a buck or broken bones. Some have more natural ability than others. Some are willing to spend the time it takes to learn and then work with the horses successfully. But this is the more rare groups. They have different goals with their horses. Not everyone wants to achieve an understanding and have a relationship. They just want to ride and do what they do and they will never have a realization of what they are missing because their minds are too closed and their viewpoints too narrow. They do not put their horses well being first.
So basically, yes. If all handlers are not skilled in the same basic methods, it doesn’t work for the horse and he will revert to the "survival" method that is the plight of most horses.
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March 2nd, 2010 at 2:43 am
I do natural horsemanship with my horse now. I have a bubble that is my personal space. He has a bubble that is his personal space. I am supposed to be able to push his bubble with my bubble and he gets out of my way. I’m the bigger horse and he moves out of MY way. This is good for someone to learn, it teaches the horse to get off the forehand, they are paying attention and ready to move instead of having their front end in China.
However, horses are not stupid. If you don’t use NH and you try to use your bubble to push him away and he doesn’t move and you don’t get after him, he’s learned that he doesn’t have to listen and starts playing other games to see what he can get away with. Watch horses out in the paddock. There is a hierarchy in the paddock. If horse A is dominant and horse B goes near his hay, A is going to probably pin his ears, maybe show some teeth to horse B. If horse B keeps coming and doesn’t listen horse A will at that point charge at horse B and bite him if he doesn’t get out of the way. See what I mean? That’s what NH is trying to teach. My first horse was a train wreck (pain issues I didn’t know about at the time) and when he started feeling good (after spending 5 years on crappy feed because I didn’t know any better) he got aggressive towards me and not listening and when a horse is 17.2 and 1500 lbs that’s just bad.
I am not familiar with Parelli and from what I’ve seen from the Parelli site I personally don’t believe it’s an effective method of training. Regardless of effectiveness, if a horse is trained with the Parelli methods and then moves to an owner that does not use Parelli methods the training is useless. Kind of like having an FEI horse that a new buyer decides to drive. All the training in the world is useless if it’s not consistent between owners.
Btw, the NH shouldn’t make the horse nervous and jumpy – most of the time I see horses become more relaxed. Maybe the clinician was doing something wrong or the training was incorrect?
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March 2nd, 2010 at 3:00 am
So, I was reading through the answers to the questions, and saw that someone’s trainer had been certified by multiple NH gurus. The thing with many of the big Natural Horsemanship people and their clinics is the fact that ANYONE can go to a clinic, and at the end of the day, they get a card saying they’re a trainer. I equate it to going to a one day CPR/First Aid training course versus becoming a doctor. You’ll get the basics, but so much information is shoved into your head in one day, not much is bound to stick.
I do like some of Parelli’s methods, but the thing I didn’t like is exactly what you said in your question: Unless someone is trained in Parelli, they won’t be able to effectively work with the horse. For example, Parelli horses are trained to load into a trailer a certain way. Sure, it looks neat, but when there’s a fire threatening the stables, and the owners of the facilities can’t get your horse to load into the trailer, as it doesn’t know how to enter the trailer in a "normal" way. If that happens, do you think they’re going to endanger the lives of themselves and the horses that loaded (somewhat) easily? No. In that instance, Parelli can actually be a danger to your horse. Of course, that is an extreme situation that would hopefully never happen.
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